By the time I had completed my third interview, I realized that the natural choices for my next meeting would be Mr.Clayton Guyton and Mr.Walker. Mr.Clayton was the founder of the Rose street community center, and I could see that all the men I had spoken to had great respect for him.

I asked Mr.Guyton how he got started.

"I have to roll my mind back now. We started about 8 years ago. I don't remember exactly which year, but I can feel it was 8 years ago. It developed out of a conversation I had with a gentleman named Elroy Christopher. At the time there was a lot of gunfire in the neighborhood, and we had a conversation about if there was anything that could be done about the violence in the neighborhood with respect to the children. We started talking about what we could do, and we came up with the idea of having a community center on Rose street - the primary focus would be children. The problem was that there was no place to put it on Rose street. So we looked at some houses that we thought were abandoned and boarded up and we said hey, why don't we go in one of these houses and turn into the community center. That's exactly what we did. Once we did that we started inviting our people to come, and once they started coming we started tutoring them math, encouraging them to read books, and encouraging them to do their homeworks. At the same time we was talking to the drug dealers who was really right outside the door.

Were you living around here?
I was living right around the corner at 2522 E madison street. We first started in the corner house, which was 823 N Rose street.

Why Rose street though?
Because there was a lot of activity, a lot of violence there. We felt it would be a good place to try to get some understanding about the impact of violence and to bring the youth to a certain understanding on doing the best that they can do in school and in their family. That was a very challenging endeavor. It was challenging because the drug dealers didn't really want our presence on Rose street because they had occupied that block for many years. Killings on that block were maybe one a month. Yeah, one a month. It was one of the most dangerous blocks in East Baltimore at the time.

Did you know them before? How did you go and talk to them?
Who, the drug dealers? I didn't know them. No, I didn't know them. I just started talking to them like you would talk to anybody, and said, can we have some safe space for the children. That was basically it, and the impetus of our conversation we wanted a safe environment that was nurturing and friendly towards the children. It started taking root but it was a slow process. While that process was unfolding we starting meeting some resistance from the neighborhood right there.

So initially they agreed but then as they found out...?
Yes because they didn't think we were serious. Sometimes a drug dealer will tell you anything to make you move away from in front of their door. They'll tell you what they think you want to hear without really meaning that they were gonna actually do that. In this case it was the same thing, they said well they're not going to actually open a community center out on this block! Because that was a very lucrative business on Rose and Ashland. Matter of fact, one quote came in that time that it was a 20,000 dollars a day operation. And so they really thought that we were going to chicken on them. As time went on, and they saw that we were really serious about doing something for the young people, then that's when they started making statements to us that you all should really leave Rose street before something happens to you, you know, this community center really shouldn't be here, that kind of stuff. So when they started talking that way we didn't take them too seriously, but then as time went on, and the more young people we had coming up to the center, we got up to 40-50-60 young people coming into the center. And then it really started taking a turn. So they started asking us on a regular basis to leave, and then we started saying, well, no we're not gonna leave. Because this is where change needs to take place right here, in all the violence on this block. So! We ended up in a situation where there was threats going back and forth between them to us and from us to them. And this went on for a while. One day, one morning we came out and the center was burning up! They had set the Rose street community center on fire.

Was this is in the night?
Yes early morning around 3am. People came knocking on the door, and I got out and people was crying and everything, oh they burnt this building down, that's the end of Rose street community center. So I said no. They said what d'you mean? There were two boarded up houses right next to the community center. So I asked somebody to go get a crowbar. So we got a crowbar and we tore the doors off the two houses. The one thing that survived at that time was a chalkboard with Rose street community center on it. So I asked somebody to get the chalkboard and we moved the chalkboard next door and I think we was closed for one day.

Did you have property inside that was burnt down?
Yeah we had everything. We went over and got tables, chairs, blackboards, paper, pens and stuff. We just kept rolling even though we had that fire. So after the fire things got a little more tense, because they thought we won't leave Rose street. So one day they put out a (I don't know what you would call it), a bulletin in the community that we weren't going to make it through the night.

So it was like a threat?
Yeah but it was a little more than a threat. But before that point had came we had talked to someone at the district attorney's office, Stephanie Mallory, state attorney. We had talked to her office about the threats and what was going on. So we was basically informed that y'all don't have to be really sitting ducks, if somebody tried to do something to you of course you could defend yourself. So we had an understanding about that. So this day they put out a bulletin saying we weren't gonna make it through the night, it was me and Mr.Chris. Along the way we had picked up Mr.Richard Benson and Mr.Caroline Brown. She lives in a corner house in Rose and Ashland. So that particular night, my friend from Balitmore Sun. This night they started shooting a gun on Eager street about a block from us. They must've shot off at least easily a 100 rounds. But there wasn't police in sight, wasn't nobody out there. It was them and us, and that was an interesting situation.

You didn't call the police at that time?
No I didn't. I didn't call the police.

Arun: Even when they....
[Mr.Guyton] Yeah.
[Mr.Walker] The police was already informed.
[Mr.Guyton] Yeah the police knew what was going on.

They didn't want to do anything about it
Yeah all those gunshots, there was over a hundred shots

Were they shooting at the center?
No they were shooting in the air. But there was a form of intimidation taking place. But the newspaper guy went into the house, and we stayed outside. So the police never came. After that night it was the turning point.

What happened after that? They didn't come confront you?
Well, after that we could talk more. Because after that there was an understanding - there was a saying in the hood like you're the man. At that point, everybody looked at each other like they was men. You're a man, you're a man, I'm a man, so they're men, so we're gonna treat them differently. So that night was the beginning of the respect we started getting from these guys. Which is really interesting. So after that we started expanding programs of the center, just went from one program to another. Street cleaning was always part of the program, though. Because community service initially came to us in acts that they do from community service. At that time our cleaning efforts was limited to Rose street and Rose street alley. We didn't go too much past there, but then as we grew we adopted the whole neighborhood, from Patterson park avenue down to Bowcheck(?) part, from eager street on the south side to monument street on the north side, actually about fifteen square blocks that we adopted. And we decided to keep that area clean. There was so much trash in the area, it was unbelievable. A rolloff which is a can that holds about three tons, we would actually put a roll off per alley in this community, because there was that much debris. Trash that the trash men wouldn't pick up, and bulk trash that was just in the alley accumulated over the years. In many cases the alleys you couldn't look - like this alley right outside? Where we are right now, 27th block and East Madison street ? - if you look down that alley you could not look down to the other end. So we had to actually put a can on almost every alley to clear all the debris out. And once we did that then the alleys were passable then the trash men could get in and do their job more effectively.

So this was all children - who did these jobs?
These were people that had community service that we actually partnershipped with if you will, cleaning the alley. That was an ordeal within itself, because wintertime, summers, spring, didn't make a difference. We was out there cleaning alleys. But now the alleys are manageable. But at that time we couldn't do but one alley maybe every two or three days. We just couldn't do the whole neighborhood. It took a while for the neighborhood to get where it is now. Where it is now,
that started happening about three and a half years ago, at the point of which you actually clean all the streets in one day. At that time it was impossible to do that. So that was part of trying to change the neighborhood too. So all that goes into the beginning process.

Were you also working at the time?
I was working as a correctional officer at the Maryland pen at the time.

So that's how you knew the community service folks?
Well some of them - some of them that was getting out of jail. Another thing that we did during that time too, when many of the threats was passed back and forth. Mainly passed around on us. We started sleeping on the corner of Rose and Ashland. We stayed out there 24 hours for six months. At least a 180 days we stayed on the corner. That was in response to some things that was said to us. So we said okay we just gonna stay on the corner and keep you from making any money at all. And that's exactly what we did. But that further agitated the situation, but we knew that, we knew that was going to raise the agitation level. But at that point we were serious about what we was doing, and trying to create a safe space for the children and the community at that time.

Arun: So tell me more about this - you said there's a saying in the hood about
Mr.Guyton: being a man
Arun: but that's seems so sudden - one day they want to burn the whole thing down, or they want to really get you out of there. How did that suddenly change?
Guyton: That we was men?
Arun: Did they later tell you anything about it?
Guyton: Well I think what happened was that I guess that they just said to themselves that they are not afraid. And we had to sort of show that we wasn't afraid, and that we would go to the extent that you would go to. But our reasoning was different from yours.
Arun: But you didn't have any guns to protect yourselves right?
Guyton: [laughs]
Walker: One thing right, is that identity in this community is something that's looked at differently from the dictionary meaning about it.
Guyton: That's right
Walker: Because the thing is, that in a case like that - because fear actually has a different interpretation as well in the mind of a drug dealer that's been selling drugs in the streets of Baltimore city for quite some time, so the thing is that one of the most significant things is identity. So when one is actually living this mindset, churning out negative activities. But when one has actually reached this mindset from a positive perspective but yet in carries no fear in a way that they believe fear should be carried. That identity is actually looked at out of awe, but from two different perspectives. So what happens is that - in that individual mind - me being in the streets as well, I understand the mindset of the streets - and once that type of reaction is given to that particular mind that is living that negative lifestyle - what happens is that one can see identity in a different way - through the lack of fear that the individual has - so what happens is that in that process identity is truly awkward but it's the reality about how one thinks that lives in our community. What I mean is in the case of the drug dealers they have a certain perception about life - identity is met, and not only is identity met, it's met, but it is also matched - without fear. So that right there, identity acts to bring about in the eyes of the individual - well he's a man, I'm a man - now I can respect him because...

Arun : Oh I see. That must be very strange for them to see someone reacting like that without any fear.
Walker: That's right - they think he had to be a man, to respond like that. Because it was abnormal to their thinking, and the way they live, the way they carry out things, had become normal to them in a subliminal way. So that's how identity, that manhood, and that matchmaking process is actually met.

Arun: I'm sorry about staying on this point - if I'm a drug dealer and you just walked out without any fear - can't I just hit you or pull out a gun and threaten you? I guess they just stop looking at it that way?
Walker: That's like - let me share with you a type of excitement that enters into the mind of one that's living a negative - that they would call an exciting lifestyle. You take something like bungee jumping - one would look at that and we deal with that particular mindset - they would look at it as being extreme - they say Man! It's something that they wouldn't do themselves. So what happens is that from a positive perspective, an extreme way of thinking has entered into their minds - and what happens is, well look man, they doing something I've NEVER seen before. Which in their minds, show manhood. So they say look I gotta respect them because what they're doing something that I've never seen it done before and only because they're a man they did something like that.

Arun: Were you scared?
Guyton: Was I scared? I was angry, I wasn't scared. Yeah I was more angry than afraid. I was angry because the children, they would tell us that they had to jump into the bathtub every night, they were talking about nightmares about their brothers and sisters getting shot, and little babies. These small children were telling us about these nights, and that made me more angry than fearful. Because it was hard for me to understand why somebody would wildly shoot a gun and shoot a child. I mean, really, I'm just being honest, I couldn't understand that at all, so that created anger. But at the same time, my anger wasn't out of control, so I learnt from my anger. And I also learnt how to develop a relationship with them - that worked for a positive partnership. Because I was able to get more of an understanding of them. Matter of fact, one young man described it as - he said - I wish I could think of his name right now - he was a drug dealer out there at the time. He said what happened here was a wall between us - we were throwing stuff across the wall. We were throwing stuff across the wall at y'all, y'all were throwing stuff across at us. What happened now is that the wall has come down, so that now, just like Walker was saying, now we're able to communicate. Once we established that communication, then we could ask them why are you out here? What do you need to change your lifestyle? And have an open honest conversation with the men that was on the corner. And that's exactly what happened. That's what that relationship produced for us. And so there we would found out the problems they have when when they was coming home from jail, how they couldn't get jobs. I mean, somebody can say look this man came home and he can't get a job. But we found out the emotions that was behind them being rejected by society, that created a hardness, and also an attitude that I'm gonna get back and I'm going to get mine any kind of way possible. So we began to have those type of conversations and being exposed to that type of thinking that they shared with us, and it was open, honest - so that encouraged us even more to do things, to help somebody that was coming back to the streets.

And then eventually some of the mothers started asking about houses for their son. At first I couldn't understand why they were asking for houses for their son, when they had a house, but they were reluctant to have their husband, boyfriend, son, come back and live with them. Because they understood that that man needed some more information if you will, about how to be a man. So that created those kind of conversations, which led to the development of the transitional housing that we have now. So that's how they came into existence. We was actually asked to do that. That's sort of the beginning of it in a nutshell.

Arun: And that was when we got these houses.
Guyton: Well we started out real slow. I actually resigned from being a correctional officer to do this because this was more where I felt that I could be effective. Because in the system I looked around and I had a lot of conversations and I didn't see change taking place. I saw warehousing of people, but not a lot of apparatus in place for change. Something in my heart said that I could be better instrument of change if you will if I started getting involved in transitional housing, to actually help men that came back from prison. That's how that piece came into existence.

Arun: So you left your job and worked here full time. How were you getting paid? Where were you getting the funds?
Guyton: Well the Abell foundation - Mr. Bob Emory came along and asked us what we needed. At first we didn't know what to tell him - he said y'all need some money, that's what you need. And that's how that process started. It's been about six years, and he's been funding us every year since then. And so that's how we have stipends for the men that's working out on the streets until they get jobs, that's how I get mine, Walker get his, and we got three more people. We got two secretaries, but they more than secretaries [Mr.Walker: Yes]. All of us actually we do anything in this program that we have to, we also send people to treatment, inpatient and outpatient. We also send them to Philadelphia if they want to go. Detox, we put them in detox. Bayview, Johns Hopkins, whatever hospital that pays for them. We also have NA (Narcotics Anonymous) that was started by two of men that came home. They meet everyday from 5.30-6.30. We also have HIV workshop that was started by one of the men that was in the house. That's three days a week. We have a sisters and sisters rap group that's two days a week. We have partnership with Vehicles for change, so that a man that's working he can get a job. We also got good men like Mr.Walker. He's like, in my opinion, the next man that's going to take over this when I go fishing in a few years. We also take on issues in the community, we also take on issues that is related to the prison population. For example today we got a letter back from public safety because we asked them to look into having a person that's incarcerated be able to vote. So we have a letter on it, a letter that if you want to I can read that to you. Hold on, let me go get that letter.

Arun: It must be that you just knew that there was something right that was going on. You were looking at it from the other side - you knew that they were doing a good thing
Walker: Oh yeah I knew it. One reason I know is that when I was out in negativity, I was even confronted even outside prison at one time. I was confronted by this, and that was a strong - based on what we shared earlier about identity, about being a man - the first time I met a man ever confronted me on the streets. And told me, why don't you do something different in life? why don't you come over here and - it wasn't nothing negative at all, it was so strange to me, I said man, this is serious. So when I started seeing him I started hiding from him. I didn't want him to see me doing what I was doing then. That actually was the process beginning as well. Them guys at that time was truly instruments in our community. And they sent a strong chance through their actions, which actually got me on the right path. I heard it, I heard the sweet sound of right living, and it became a great part of my life. From that point on, I'm still listening to that sweet sound and I'm still following that direction of life in a proper way, and of right living.

Arun: I'm just thinking aloud, but it must be that everyone has, inside their mind, know what is good and what is right.
Walker: Yeah everyone carries with them what is called a conscience. And in that conscience lies two elements, one to the left, one to the right. They pick up the vibrations of the negative and the vibrations of the positive. When those elements come and bestorming one mind, one can see clearly and think clearly, saying hold on this is right, this is the right thing to do. But the wrong becomes the norm so much it becomes a great chain or lock that actually allows the actions of an individual to be limited from right doing. But the prophets song that sings of right living can actually enter into that mind, and I know this is the right thing to do, this is the right way to go, this is the right road to take, and begin to put that into practice, and then what melts away is the negative barriers, that negative handcuffs, that once closed the mind of the individual, and I speak of myself. Because those handcuffs within my mind has melted and freedom has come about, so now I can become, I am, and I'm still becoming a free thinker. Because of the process, I've been chained up so much, in so many different aspects of my life, I didn't understand structure, freedom, I didn't understand anything. The only thing I understood was mental, physical and emotional slavery. And i couldn't go anywhere, I was trapped inside of myself. But the right arrow that the right people will hold, and the right song that they sing, that my mind and my heart can hear. And I'm going to follow those songs. And right now I still hear it. Those songs lead me on a road of righteousness, to stand for what is right. That has been embedded in me, and I'm going to carry that with me till death do me part.

Guyton: We are a faith based program. Even though we are Christians, there's other men that are part of this environment.
Arun: Yeah the last two men I spoke to were Muslim.
Guyton: Right. But we are all one family. Its hard to distinguish a christian froma muslim in this program. It's probably the only program like that in the city. We stand on Hebrews 11:1, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen and not seen". We stand on it. When you're standing on that foundation there's room for everybody. Your character is what makes the difference. In this program your character will be challenged to come forward, the best in you will be challenged to come forward. For example, we give out trash cans full of food to needy families in our community, we give out saving bottles to the youth nearly every week. You just name it, the situation come up, and case by case we examine it and figure out the right direction to go. We take chances too, because a lot of things we do is trial and error, because you're dealing with human nature. There is no hard guideline, but as long as your heart is in the right place, and we believe that being in the right place is having a relationship with God, then you can do what you're supposed to do to make things better. And then if you're wrong you don't mind admitting that you're wrong too, hey I was wrong, I'm sorry I apologize. So now let's do this again and do it in a different direction in a way that is comfortable to everybody.

38.01
We do take on issues in the community, like Mr.Walker is taking on the homicide issue. We're hundred percent sure that we're going to get it classified as an epidemic. We're taking on other issues like for example in jail, we feel that the men should be able to vote. So we wrote a letter to the department of public safety and corrections a few months ago. This is their response to it. This letter is from Mary Livers, PhD, deputy secretary for operations, department of public safety and correctional services. "I have been asked to respond to your letter to the department of public safety and correctional services Secretary Mary Ann Saar, regarding voter registration efforts on behalf of offenders. The department strongly supports the restoration of voter rights for those who have completed their sentence. However at this time we are not able to accomodate a voter registration project within our prison facilities. We are exploring in conjunction with the Maryland Justice Coalition, a strategy to certify the end of an individual sentence incarceration and formal community supervision. It is our hope that the provision of such certification combined with the advocacy efforts of the MJC and other organizations will facilitate the restoration of voter rights for offenders. We sincerely wish the Rose street community center the best of luck in it's efforts to provide continued wrap-around services to offenders. Through our mutual work with MJC, I'm sure we will have the opportunity to work together on voting rights restoration and strategies. Please do not hesitate to write or contact me 410 339 5096 should you need anything else." So those are the type of issues that we address, because quality of life is very important. That is how you're going to get a man or woman who's going to come out of the system to see themselves as a part of society, as an American citizen. Because not seeing oneself as part of normal society lends itself to an attitude of criminal behavior. So we are trying to confront those type of attitudes on all fronts, or at least as many fronts as we possibly can. This is one of those fronts too.

Arun: Are those who serving sentence - can they vote in an country at all?
Guyton: No they can't vote. What's interetsting is that prison population in America is mostly african Americans. I have to say its atleast 85-90%. Now again, we are talking about 25% of the incarcerated population of the world is in America and even though America is only 4% of the world’s population. And out of this 25% of the incarcerated world, I have to say atleast 80-90% are African American. So that's another way to disenranchise us, even though we went through the Civil rights movement, so that we can have rights to vote.

Arun: What the logic for not letting them vote?
Guyton: Fear.
Arun: Fear?!
Guyton: Fear. Fear that they might vote you out, you are against crime, you are against criminals, and so the fear is that there are all these ex-criminals may get together and vote you out of office, so take away their voting rights. Yeah fear. That's the motivation behind taking a person's rights, voting rights once they become incarcerated. Very interesting, eh!
Arun: This is totally new to me..even the idea of - I’ve neerver even thought of it, whether a person in prison should vote or not vote. I thought there would be some rational reason why they shouldn't vote.
Guyton: There is none. You carry out a full study on it, examine it, there is none! There's only one conclusion, fear.
Arun: There is no judgement or any case in the court that says that this is why the prisoners shouldn't vote?
Guyton: Well, you can probably go back to the constitution for justification.. I can't even identify the amendment but you can probably go back to the US constitution. They found a way, but each state has the right to restore an ex-offender’s voting rights but as of today there may be only 10 states that's actually considering it. I think one of them is NY & may be one of them is FL. I was reading an article about 3 months ago. NJ is another one.. very interesting topic though. More interesting, this is African-Americans we are talking about, so you’ve effectively reduced the ability of African-Americans to have an destiny in America. I forgot the number, but its approaching some astronomical number in African American communities, how many african-americans out of every 100,000  has been or is incarcerated. That's another way of taking away a man’s rights. So if you look in a community like East Baltimore, its probably easily about, easily a 100-150,000 people. Out of that 150,000 people, if only 20,000 are eligible to vote! That's right. Somebody needs to do a study on that, and you’d be surprised how many in a community such as this are eligible to vote for their leaders. Therefore we don’t  get the resources that we need to change, the politicians know that.
Arun: They know that they don't get votes from here, so why should they bother?
Guyton: That's right.
Walker: In the city, the population is what, at least 350,000? I know that 75,000 of the African American population have been incarcerated. You take that number, and that number has been incarcerated on a yearly basis. [laughs] So I think this thing has already started.
Guyton: We're actually being returned to second-class citizens. There was an article not too long ago that stated out of every ten inmates that's released from prison in Maryland, 6 return to the city.
Arun: What does that mean?
Guyton: That means a very large number of incarcerated people are returning to the city with no voting rights. So therefore federal funds, we don't get our share. We just missing our part of the pie, and that's why our community like it is, that's part of the reason why our community is like this. And part of the reason why our homicides is like it is.Lack of resources, look at our school system- it's in shambles.  We're having a homicide every day, every 50 hours there's a homicide.

Arun: Is lot of it here?
Guyton: Yes, in this East Baltimore community, and we are right down the street, right 10 or may be 12 blocks from one of the most prestigious hospitals in the world. And that’s truly amazing and that’s the question I keep asking, how come that happens.

Arun: The 1st time I came down here, called you up, fixed up our meeting, walking east, and I had never been beyond like a block from the medical school. Within a block the whole place has changed.
Guyton: That's right, I believe you.
Arun: Even on the Homweood campus, Charles Street is right beside Hopkins. You walk from Charles street Greenmount Avenue, its like you are in a totally different country.
Guyton: Yeah, that’s right that’s amazing and Johns Hopkins is known all over the world. What is their community strategy or their community plan? That's why a lot of the community people feel that Johns Hopkins is actually part of the problem, because once the community go down they can get the housing cheap, the land cheap and then they can build more facilities. Whether that's true or not, it will be hard to prove, but that's the feel, that's the intuitiveness of a lot of people that's been in the community for a long time and that's why Johns Hopkins don't invest in the surrounding community, because then the property prices will go up. They couldn't expand. So they have a vested interest in the community being violent, and becoming unliveable. They have a vested interest. It's like that idea now about a biotech plant, well the houses they're buying now, they're getting them for nothing. If those houses was viable, they couldn't do it, it would be too expensive for them. They get those houses for like 5,000, they're getting them for nothing! It's not that they directly - but just the mere fact that they sit back and don't do anything when they can do something.

Walker: This right here, is called Epidemic of violence, and from 11/3/2003, it's the Baltimore safe and sound campaign. It's actually titled "Epidemic of violence". It says, while substantial and important progress has not been made, Baltimore remains one of the most dangerous places on the planet, in terms of gun violence. Particularly for children and youth that is simply unacceptable." And this is actually coming through the Believe campaign, it's the Baltimore safe and sound campaign. The victims are not just the ones we bury, the fear we feel in our neighborhoods, the reputation for unsafe streets, were developing on a national level, and the stemming of our prospects for the future, are all outgrowths of the epidemic of violence that is occurring in our streets. The pervasiveness of guns, drugs and crime has created a sense of chaos and unpredictability in the middle of our community. The impact of this situation is just as pervasive, spreading out from the most violent neighborhoods to affect the city and the state as a whole. Prospects for investment and economic development suffers in the face of the climate of fear. Maryland’s largest and most well known city is suffocated beneath a blanket of violence. We are particularly dealing with a city and a state that is fully aware. This is them speaking, this is them speaking we're going into - this is almost '05 now, this is almost a year and a half ago, you sit back and see that really nothing is being done. But we understand, because we understand this language and we understand what is going on in the lives of our children, we see them fall in the streets. So we have an obligation to highlight & address these issues so that our children can live. Just to give you an example as well as the truth and reality, of what takes place, and how they feel and we feel - that harm our children, to explain how big this issue is, the structure of our community - it's breaking it down, from within. And growth is needed to bring about more houses, jobs, mental health, so our children can get the proper treatment that is necessary. We look at it from a fair and equal way, so that the fair share of living can be given. So we’ll fight the homicide,and we're gonna win. We want our children to live their American dream. We're going to fight until change is felt in the hearts of our children.

55.06
Arun: What keeps you going? When I hear about this thing, its so overwhelming, that - My God, its such a huge problem and --
Guyton: Well, I think the main thing is faith, is Hebrew 11:1 - faith - knowing that this mission came from God. See, actually no man can pay me for doing what I am doing! You can’t pay me. I mean, if I didn't feel like this came from god and you came to me and gave me this job description, I’ll say wait a minute what the hell are you talking abt? That’s not for me, and you could pay me no amount of money to do it. So I honestly believe that this’s what God would have us to do and we can see the results of God moving, and that within itself is the fire that burns, that will not go out. So the motivation is continually there, day or night - you could wake us up at 2 o'clock in the morning and we're ready. And it's an awesome responsibility. And then the other thing that keeps us going is when we glimpse a change in someone's life that we know that we helped a young man or woman or child, to make it over, to make up their mind, to live a different lifestyle. And somebody comes back and they say man, they tell you what you said, and the words that made a difference in their lives, there's nothing like it. It's a rush beyond comparison. Even though you're not really looking for the rush. Even if sometimes if I'm thinking about getting tired, God will allow somebody to come and tap me on the shoulder and say, I wanna thank you for what you've done. Then I'm ready! So it's a unbelievable task because me and Mr.Walker talk about it all the time, what a responsibility. But at the same time, it has become a lifestyle for us, and it's so rewarding that it puts you in a mindset where you will take nothing for it.  That's in a nutshell is what keeps us going.My relationship with God. Without that, we couldn't do it. With the despair, the hopelessness that is there in the community, but the love of God is greater than all those negativities. And that's what keeps us floating. It's awesome.

Arun: You are not going to go fishing are you?
Guyton: Oh in a few years, yes. It's going to be the young man's time. You have to know, I mean - he’s right now takin on the responsibilities & I’m doing less of the public side. He's doing more of the public side. You have to know when it's somebody else's turn. I don't have no problem with that. And then one day maybe I will sit down and write a book, but I don't have no time for that. I do enjoy writing too, but since being involved in this, I can count the letters that I have written. I just don't have the time, to focus my thoughts and put them to paper. Maybe one day as I go fishing, sit down, it's all here [points to his head] - I will put it down on paper.
Arun: I’ll look forward to that.
Guyton: In 5-6 years I'll do that.

Arun: How many people are involved with running the center right now?
Guyton: Well the central group is about 30 of them, but it's without borders. Because we have partners all over Baltimore, people that's friends of Rose street community center, as well as people that are incarcerated, as a part of the team, a lot of support from the inside. One of the gentleman's name that come to mind, is Samuel Humes, he's been incarcerated about 15 years. He's a friend of Rose street.
Walker: Yes indeed.
Guyton: He's just one of many that we have.
Arun: Is he going to be out soon?
Guyton: Maybe. Maybe in about a year or two. He's gonna come straight to us.


1.01.24
Arun: So things just seem to work out, is that the feeling you get? I mean you're talking about Abel foundation coming up and more or less..
Guyton: Well, things do work out. I mean, that's another intuitive note to let us know that it's from God, because every time the word is it's time to end this, whatever is needed for it to continue, it happens. And that's what truly lets you know that God is a part of this. We say, well we don't have no money, so it's time to quit, and money show up without even asking somebody. That's the amazing part. We say you know we need another house to do something and lo and behold, a house will be right where we needed it to be. It's the unfolding of a plan that's far beyond our comprehension, and all the pieces of the puzzle come together, and it's almost like, if we do what we're supposed to do, but don't get in a hurry, things happen. But we must be diligent, we must work hard, and be honest, and treat people fair, maintain our relationship with god, then the pieces of the puzzle will fall into place. It's an unbelievable walk in life, I've never seen nothing like it.
Walker: It's amazing.
Arun: Yes.
Guyton: Yes! So I mean, there's nobody but a God that could do something like that. Because we can't do it. Even you coming here, however you found out about us, to get into contact with us.
Arun: Yes, I don't know how I got here.
Guyton: So what's it supposed to be? Now we're going to be on a website, on a documentary that you're doing. So that's how things happen to us. What we found out is that we have to do the best that we can all the time, we have to be the best that we can be. Not afraid to make mistakes now, but never to act out of anger, malice or hatred. Those are the wrong feelings to act out of, always act out of love, care, and consideration, and we found if we do that then God will open and direct a path that we're supposed to go on, and we go by Fate, because he's actually leading us. We always have to be in the right frame of mind, and that's why prayer is so important. That's why we open all our nightly meetings with prayer, with the gospel. Sometimes we describe it as not a church, but it's the next thing to a church. When you read about how god's relationship with the church, how he do things with the church, you can actually see him doing that with us. Whether you are a non-believer - we have non-believers in our program - we had a gentleman the other night who said he didn't believe in God, two nights ago he led a prayer.
Walker: It was awesome
Guyton: And he had just told us the night before, that
Walker: He didn't believe that God exists.
Guyton: And then the very next night he asked if it was okay if he could lead the prayer. It was unbelievable.

1.05.58
Arun: So you welcome people from all faiths.
Guyton: Yeah
Arun: And there's no
Guyton: We dont' judge a faith. That's not our job. But we can judge your character, but not your fate. Only God can judge your faith. We can judge your character. If you don't treat me the way you want to be treated, we got a problem. If you steal from me then we got a problem. But we don't judge your faith, but your character.
Arun: There's a lot of this going on, I know this situtation best back in India, there are these Hindu groups, who say that that's the Muslim, they've been occupying our country and let's drive them out.
Guyton: We don't say that.
Arun: But there are organizations of that kind whcih claim that they're based on some kind of faith or other, but they're very exclusive.
Guyton: Well America is the same way, religions, different belief systems are very exclusive. There's organizations that say that you're on your way to hell but we don't do that. We don't do that. We got muslims, jehovah's witnesses, any other faith that you have, can exist in this environment, and every man feels equal. Martin Luther King said in a different way: he said, don't judge me by the color of my skin, but judge me by the content of my character. If you wanted to put a word in, take a word out - don't judge me by my faith or my belief system, but judge me by the content of my character. In some people's opinion that's a giant step, but that's a baby step towards building a better community.

1.08.44
Arun: Have you ever interacted with Dr.King?
Guyton: Only in his writing. I read several of his books, I consider him my mentor .He was a radical, a god fearing man. He was very wise, beyond his years. He knew how to get something done in the right spirit, the spirit of peace, he knew how to shake the foundation of America with the spirit of peace. I'm still working on that piece, but he's my mentor.
Arun: What do you think about his ideals of non-violence, and that comes full circle, because you people attended our program of non-violence on campus. In fact, the example you gave was totally an example of non-violent resistance.
Guyton: Yes, that's what we're doing in the community, but it's firm, it's fair and impartial, but it's non-violent resistance. Martin Luther King had a great idea, he adopted it from Gandhi, Gandhi was his mentor but you know that. So his ideas of non-violence was powerful because it worked, because it actually forced a person that's acting in ignorance to reexamine themselves over a period of time, because it actually produced shame, because how long can you hit a man that doesn't hit you back, and then ends up not even angry with you, how long can you beat that man? It's just something in you, it just won't allow you to go but so far. He knew how to tap into that, as well as Gandhi did. Gandhi changed India without firing a shot, and Martin Luther King changed America without firing a shot. And we're gonna change homicide in our community without firing a shot. Greater men that us practised the ideas of non-violence, it worked for them and it's gonna work for us. We just have to learn how to use it from a different perspective. But it's the key to change. Compassion, care, love, consideration, those are the greatest tools that a man can have. Violence is the worst tool that mankind have. But in many cases it's the first response, but it's definitely a response based in ignorance. Non-appreciation for another's life, feeling that's ignorance. Not realizing that you're part of humanity, mankind, that's ignorance. Somebody else had to bear the brunt of the consequences of your ignorance, until one becomes enlightened if you will. That's what's happening in this community, Mr.Walker - we're shining a light - that light is shining in dark places. It's gonna create a change, we already know that.

Guyton: Did you see the news last night? Channel 45 and channel 2 - they did another piece about the violence, Mr.Walker was on there last night. I didn't see it but other people saw it. Because violence in Baltimore is reaching new heights. Since we're the most outspoken group right now, that's why they were doing that particular section dealing with homicide rate of the city.
Walker: We talked last time, and I showed you the documents.
Arun: I put up all the documents that I got from Mr.Walker on that website, you can see the petition and the city's responses.
Guyton: Question: Have you got responses from the website?
Arun: I haven't sent the website to many people yet, I wanted to first get you all and make sure that you think it's accurate and
Guyton: Everything I've read, I've skimmed through it but I'm a pretty good skimmer. I liked it. It looks good.
Arun: I was just waiting, I didn't want to rush in.
Guyton: Let me ask you this thing:
Arun: but the few people I have told this to, and also to Dag. He's the assistant director of the Center for Social Concern. I spoke to him and he showed it to a couple of others. THe response has been fantastic. Now the semester has started, and i will be contacting our campus newsletter, that I'd like to have a series of articles based ont he text on the website. I don't know about the Baltimore sun but I'll contact them as well.
Guyton: Great. I was going to ask you what kind of results, questions, or expectations were you expecting once you put it out there on the website. Have you thought about the audience that reads it. What kind of audience would be attracted to it.
Arun: There are two things - I think what I'm doing is very closely related to what happened on our campus, and we were really shocked - if you see the email that our president sent us, I was shocked to read that. Because it only talked about increasing security, and I know there are many people who thought the same way. This happened during the spring semester, and nothing happens in summer, so now we can connect this up. But otherwise I think that most of the people involved with the Center of Social Concern will be interested, because they have been involved with Community service, but I have no way to assess what others will think.
Walker: We really appreciate your interest.
Arun: If there's any other form or way we can have a better kind of interlinking, but I can get something started like a relationship between our campus and Rose street.
Guyton: I think that's it's one of those type of stories that in ten years, it's gonna be hot. It's almost like a blues player - when he first start playing, right, they say man, ain't nothing to him - then when he gets 60, like BB King, but as BB King got older, they say oh man, he got style man, it's different from all other styles. They got other styles to compare him to. But what's so interesting about what we're doing, there's no one to compare us to. Other people have asked well who else is doing what y'all doing. They try to qualify and quantify what we're doing, and it's difficult, because they can't find any comparison. But as time go on, not to pat us on the back but ina  way we are ahead of our time, but as other groups try to catch up to what we're doing, and try to look around for examples. Then that's when we're gonna be super SUPER hot. That's gonna be in ten years. Because as the incarceration problem becomes more and more of a problem, right now they're looking at a model in Boston. The model in Boston has some elements that will work, but if they take a close look at this model, they find that we have a high success rate, but they don't know how to measure. It's difficult to measure, for whatever reason. They looked in our database one time, six months after they funded us. They found that in six months after they had funded us, we had 800 clients. They couldn't believe it, we had more clients in six months than some of these organizations have in two or three years. And we was on a small street, with no directions, no sign, and had never put out a flyer. And we had 800 clients. We couldn't believe that.
Arun: I can't believe it!
Guyton: They said well how'd y'all do that? Well because we were doing what was needed to be done in the community and word of mouth was spreading. That's where we advertise. We actually ahead of our times, but it's okay.
Arun: Would you ever go out to advertise?
Guyton: No. We never advertise, never.
Arun: Why not?
Guyton: If you're doing what needs to be done, and you're doing it right, you don't have to advertise. Somebody else is gonna tell others about it. For example the flyer we have in jail, we didn't put out the flyer, the inmates wrote the flyer up, and spread it around the jail. They did it. When we go into jail to speak, we have one of the largest turnouts the jail has. Because the inmates spread the word, hey you want to come, you wanna see what's going on with this these are the people that care, sincerely care. We don't have to put out word.
Walker: But there is one advertisement, it's a spiritual advertisement: it's Hebrew 11:1 - "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen or not seen".
Guyton :And to show you how the word of mouth is, if you went out to west baltimore, which is far ways from here, if you ask 10 different people, if they have heard about rose street center, I can guarantee you, 3 of them have. And most likely the three that you ask, they've never been. They say, Rose street? Yeah i heard of them, I never been there. You know what's amazing, you can be in a line in a supermarket sometime, and people will be talking about you, they don't even know you the guy. They don't even know you. They say man, yeah, yeah they're doing something. Because you have done something to help somebody in their family, you've done it the right way. That's better than anything that's been done from our perspective. In years, oh yeah - in years they'll say there's already a format that's out there, there's already somebody who did that, they say lets' take a look at this model. So right now they're wrestling with models that are not working, or temporary fixes. And what we're doing is more of a lasting impact. And that goes to the heart of the person, and that's where the change takes place. and if the person has a change in heart, most likely they're going to change their life, even if they go backwards. but now it's in them. They say let me do this again, let me try this again, and that's what's so interesting about this process.

Arun: I'm part of an organization that also does some community service back in India, and we fund NGOs that we are working in India. There's always this debate about whether we should advertise, and I always say that we shouldn't, and that it should go by word of mouth. But others think that we should advertise and spread the word but there's the other way of thinking which is wait and do your own work.
Guyton: Well that's what we believe? Wait and do your own work, and if you do it right, the word will go out strong, and if you do it wrong, the word will go out strong. And that's what we found out.
Arun: Were there instances where you did something in not the right way, and kind of wrong.
Guyton: Yeah, well people understand that you make mistakes, but how you approach your mistake is important. If you approach a mistake like you're wrong, and I'm always right .But if you approach a mistake like look, I've made an honest mistake and I apologize for it. Now, how can we do this in a different way that is meaningful to both of us, it creates a win-win situation. In other words, don't try to sweep a mistake under the rug, shine some light on that mistake. And that creates an awesome growth within the individual, when one makes a mistake, and corrects it in a right way, that's awesome. That helps you discover more about yourself too, which is another aspect of this program, it keeps you in self-discovery, cause you constantly see the kind of individual that you are. You are constantly looking in a mirror, and the mirror is before you all the time, and the mirror is the community, which is before you all the time. It's interesting.
 
What goes on over a day at the center?
We get up early in the morning at about 4.30, and go for a walk at 5. Walk or run or jog, however you want to do it. That's about a mile and a half that we do. Then we come back and at 6o'clock we have a meeting if you will, just to remind everybody what kind of program it is, we mainly do that everyday. Once we all are reminded about what kind of program it is, a faith based program, based on Hebrew 11 and 1, St James version, reminded of some other things about the program, then we start our task. Our task is to
clean the streets around and make our neighborhood look good one more day. That's what we do. And after that any appointments that you have, you go to 'em, any job interviews that you have, you go to them. After that the next important thing is if you have a drug related program, 5.30pm NA - Narcotics Anonymous. After that we may go for a walk at 7, which is becoming optional. And then we have a house meeting at 9pm, and that's when we share the events of the day, and bring everybody upto the same page. Any criticism needs to be done, or any credits we give our lads, given our pool, rewarding the youth in our neighborhood. All that takes place during our house meeting which is 9pm. After that you bump into a house curfew, so it's time to go to bed, because we're going to have a full day. We really really have full days around here, Monday through Thursday. Friday is a little more relaxed, Saturday we go in for entertainment, movies eat, shoot pool, loosen up a little bit. And Sunday is like a sleep-in day. And then you get good enough sleep on Sunday, then Monday it's back to the whole routine. But in the course of that day, somebody might have to go in treatment, an emergency come up, all sorts of things happen in the course of the day. Sometimes a life and death situations happen - we could almost get a life and death situation about once every two weeks or once every ten days.

Because of health or ...?
Because of the community that we're in. Something has to be said to encourage somebody not to hurt somebody. That happens regularly. And almost anything - helping clean out a senior citizens drive, you name it, we do it. Almost everyday, six days a week. Barbecuing. You name it. This weekend we're having a barbeque for the children up on Early street, back to school barbecue. Our days are anything but typical, and we enjoy it.

Walker: You just brought to my attention something that day has been so full, I forgot about a guy I met on the street who gave me a job [laughs] You just triggered that thought right there. He got store on Monument street. Matter of fact, he's from India. Talked to him and I said do you need some help, he said, can you help me clean my yard. I said, man! Thank you for reminding me.
Guyton: Alright.

Arun: Do you have pictures from the beginning or people who are part of it?
Guyton: Well I'm not a picture person. Some people do - it's a lot of pictures out there, somewhere. But I have very few pictures, because I was more of a nuts and bolts person.

Arun: So then one day I should come and take some photographs
Guyton: Sure! You ever came to our house meetings?
Arun: No - that's the other thing, I should. I was going to ask.
Guyton: Come on Tuesday at 9pm. Monday we're not going to have one. Not to put too much on your schedule, cause you're going back to school, right?
Arun: Actually the only thing I'm taking is a writing class now. I'm done with all my other classes, just want to take some writing class to get some experience.
Guyton: Are you in a doctoral program?
Arun: Yes I will be getting a PhD and my research is in neuroscience.
Guyton: Neuroscience, that's right you told me that. Do you have to write a dissertation?
Arun: Yes I do have to write a dissertation and I'm nearly done, by about March or so I will be done.
Guyton: What is yours on?
Arun: I study the sense of touch. What I do is to understand - so we have neurons that convey signals from the hand to the brain. So what we do is to actually record from the hands of monkeys, and we try to understand how they represent information, and what kind of information the neurons convey to the brain. And then we record in the brain to see what's happening to that information in the brain, how it's being transformed, and how that gives rise to perception.
Guyton: Hmm, that's really interesting.

[At this point, somebody came in at that point and asked Guyton about the evening walk, and they chatted for some time. We could hear some people speaking loudly in the background.]

Guyton: That's interesting about the perception of touch, and how it gives rise to perception.
Arun: I've studied a bunch of neuroscience, and it's really amazing how the brain forms these conditionings, how we learn, how we perceive, but a lot of it is totally unknown. We don't understand a lot of things.
Guyton: Let me ask you something. How much do you think a person's belief system plays into their - I'm trying to fit that question into perception.
Arun: Well, I can interpret it...
Guyton: How does a person's belief system impact their perception and their experience. Do they connect?
Arun: First of all I should qualify whatever I say - if you imagine the goal of understanding perception,we're looking through a keyhole, we don't know anything. So that being said, I can try to answer that. I think the answer is that the brain is all the time reconstructing what it thinks the world is like. Especially with vision, you can see - if I put my hand in front of this mic, you still perceive it as a continous object, but you don't see it that way. It's because your brain is actually interpreting this whole thing, which is actually a photograph that you see on your eyes, but the photograph is being interpreted as two objects. Because you've seen my hand and the mike separately, so you don't interpret it as a single object with the mike sticking out at one end and a wire out of the other. So the brain is doing this all the time, it's reconstructing what it thinks the world is like, it never knows exactly what is out there. It's all incomplete information.
Guyton: That's interesting.
Arun: You're always trying to infer what's really going on. It makes a big difference what you are expecting to see. For example in this room I'm looking at you, I'm seeing you and Mr.Walker. Suddenly if something changes in the sofa, I will never notice it because I don't expect it to change. I can show you photograph in which there's a man getting down from a jetplane, and another which looks identical, and you don't see the difference, until it's pointed out that the engine of the jetplane is missing in one of the photos! Till then you just don't see it! It's one of those things about attention. You usually pay attention to things that you expect will change. Basically what we understand now is that you learn about the world as you grow. Forget about belief systems, that will change anyway - even perception changes. As a kid you need to get exposed to many things, so that you understand the structure of the world. The analogy is pretty clear to belief systems etc, but I think it's the same kind of thing. As far as perception is concerned, we have studied it scientifically, it's known that the kind of environment you grow up in influences your basic perception. There are experiments in which they expose baby rats of monkeys to only horizontal lines, and it turns out that they'll only perceive horizontal lines, because the brain thinks that the world consists of only horizontal lines. It's called the critical period in childhood. It's really important for the child to experience a lot in the beginning. And it's really fascinating, not all of it is known, and there's a lot that's still to be discovered.

Guyton: As you get older you really realize that what you said is true, that the brain is always changing. It changes slower as you grow up. It's not as fast as it was 25 years ago. But there's a part of me that's doing things as fast as it was when I was a child, but that part doesn't engage the physical part timely enough. As you get older you can actually see that, it's almost like looking at yourself all the time. You said that you could really really realize that. That's why I like to listen to people at 70, 80, and 90 -- because somewhere in there, you know that a part of your mind gets dimmer and dimmer, because you can't engage yourself as quickly as you used to. It's like that part of you has tired and just says What's the use, I'm just not gonna do that anymore.
Arun: But there's still one part that still ...
Guyton: Oh yeah. It's very interesting to be able to see yourself actually moving slower.
Arun: So earlier people used to believe that the brain doesn't change after a while, like the first 10 years you learn everything, and after that nothing changes. That's old thinking. But now the thinking that right upto the point you die, that it's all the time changing.
Guyton: But the speed is slower. If somebody in their eighties says to you that they're thinking as fast as they do when they were 15, then they have become so accustomed to their new speed, they done forgot the speed they was at when they were 15. Well of course your alertness and all, those you can still maintain that, but there's a shift in the speed. You can't go out and run as fast as you did.
Walker: That's right, flexibility.
Guyton: But you do learn to compensate though in a different kind of way, and to me that's called wisdom. Because you learn how to - as you get older - when I was younger, right - it used to take me ten steps to accomplish something, and now since I got more wisdom it takes me only five steps. So it might appear that I'm still working at the same speed, but actually I have learnt the shortcuts. To me, that's where the wisdom comes in, that's patience is useful, insight, all those intrinsic words, start coming into play, because your system of logic slows down but you do learn other ways of doing things.
Arun: The guy I was talking to last week, he was mentioning that as he learnt more and more about the history of his people, he felt he was slowing down, he felt he was sitting back and really observing what was going on. It's like a wisdom thing.

Guyton: I understand what you're talking about. That's where knowledge has an impact on one's system - erratic system if you will. When you get knowledge it gives you a sort of direction, so knowledge is pretty important. That's an interesting take on perception though. [1.49.12]But old people, senior citizens, I like listening to them, I like listening to old people and their songs too. I'm flipping a page slightly in what I'm saying though in what I'm saying, but it still relates. You can take an old person who's been singing for years, but they really don't know how to sing, but when they sing a song it sounds good. Why is that? Okay, because they have learnt something. They have learnt how to put the spirit into the song. Nobody can teach you that. When you're young, you use all your vocals, your diaphragm, it sounds good. But an older person can listen to a young person's song, and still say that it's a hollow song. It sounds good but it doesn't have the spirit, it doesn't have the vibe. That's what Martin Luther King had. When he made the speech, right, he had life! If he was just talking, because you have to ask yourself, out of all these ministers before him, why couldn't they do what he did? And they had the same tones, of the voice, cause that was the style of preaching in the black neighborhood, what he did. But what was the difference when he says something like "I had a dream today". You could take a thousand preachers to say, I had a dream but the one that you listen to would be him. And why is that? See, and that goes beyond logic.

Arun: Just along the same lines, there are some audio clips of Gandhi talking. I listen to Gandhi and it's like, he can't talk, think he's not an orator, he doesn't talk
Guyton: That's right, I've listened to it too. What was the magic? That's right.
Arun: It's amazing.
Guyton: Absolutely.
Arun: I don't know what his charisma was, I really like him a lot. You look into his speeches.
Guyton: Yeah. How old are you?
Arun: 26.
Guyton: in 20 years, you'll hear it. As you get older you'll hear it. That it goes beyond logic. It goes to that developing spirit you have for mankind. Those same words - it's like you listen to a song when you're 10, listen to the same song when you're 15, listen to that same song when you're 30, listen to that same song, same record when you're 50. You say, man! It's awesome. That's what gonna happen to you with Gandhi. Ten more years you'll listen to it and say man! I done heard that speech before, but I've never heard that speech before. That's the way it happens, it happens right there with movies. I heard Mr.Walker talk about the movie 13th warrior when he first saw it, it meant nothing to him. It was a nice movie, but it wasn't until he watched it again - the 13th warrior.
Walker: Man, it's an awesome movie! I didn't think that the first time. I liked the movie, but I didn't see the elements that it carried, the qualities that it carried.
Guyton: And that's the way Gandhi is going to hit you. Like you said, the question is man, what made the whole world listen to this man. Ain't nothing there. Or you're going to have an experience that's going to go beyond logic. And then when you listen to it, you say I know what this man is talking about now, beyond the words. It's the same way with what we're doing - see the population that is attracted to us, it's the population that's been in prison - that's lost their freedom. A person that's never been incarcerated, that never had a struggle, they say man, these people got nothing in there, they aint' about nothing, but somebody that's been jailed. They say, oh man, I know what they're saying. So a person's experiences too give rise to their perception. Just like touch. It's on so many different levels, it's unbelievable. I'm just interested in what you said about that.
Arun: My current feeling is that I can tell that there's something special about Gandhi or King when I read about them, but it's so hard to put your finger on them and say that's what it was. It's amazing that King or Gandhi are so widely read
Guyton: That's right, the whole world listens to them.

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